Govs. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania and Spencer Cox of Utah decried the state of the political discourse in the country and talked of leaning on each other after high-profile cases of political violence in a wide-ranging interview with “Today” co-anchor Savannah Guthrie on Tuesday.
Both have been at the forefront of handling political crises in their states.
Cox, a Republican, was widely praised for his handling of the assassination of conservative political activist Charlie Kirk in Utah in September, an event that inflamed political divides. Shapiro, a Democrat, has dealt with political violence repeatedly in his state, including the attempt on President Donald Trump’s life at a rally in Butler last year and the politically motivated firebombing of his own home this year.
“I just need to tell you when that very dark day happened in my state, the first call I got was from this guy, from Gov. Shapiro, and he gave me some advice that changed what I was going to say when I stepped in front of that camera for the first time,” Cox said, speaking alongside Shapiro at the National Cathedral in Washington.
“He told me to speak with moral clarity and to speak from the heart. … I don’t care what color his politics are, in that moment we were two Americans who were deeply saddened and struggling, and I’m grateful that there’s somebody I can trust, even though we disagree on a lot of things,” he added.
Shapiro had similarly received plaudits from both sides of the aisle for his handling of the aftermath of the attempt on Trump’s life.
In a speech about political violence days after Kirk was assassinated, Shapiro criticized the “selective condemnation” of such attacks.
“I never looked to myself to being any sort of expert on political violence or, frankly, needing to engage in a national conversation about political violence, until I saw Spencer Cox, in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk, handle that matter in the way that he did,” Shapiro said Tuesday. “I saw him lift up not just Utahns but create an opportunity for a dialog I think we sorely need in this country to try and lift everyone up and get us out of the darkness of political violence that has fallen upon us.”
Shapiro and Cox have built a friendship across party lines through their work with the National Governors Association.
The event Tuesday was billed as a bipartisan conversation to address the growing spate of violent, politically motivated attacks across the country. Cox, citing research on political violence, said the U.S. is on a long-term path that could lead to civil war.
A recent NBC News poll found that more than 6 in 10 registered voters — including majorities of Democrats, Republicans and independents — said they think “extreme political rhetoric” was an important contributor to Kirk’s killing in September.
“I hate even using that phrase,” Cox said. “But if we don’t make a course correction, that’s where this leads.”
The event was interrupted at multiple points by protesters, who were shouting down both Shapiro and Cox, though it was unclear what they were protesting.
Shapiro repeatedly talked up condemning political violence originating from right- or left-wing actors, saying Trump has failed to condemn political violence when it originates on the right.
“It should not be hard to see the [former] Minnesota speaker of the House gunned down and mourn her loss,” he said. “It should not be hard to follow the beautiful eulogy of Erika Kirk with an ‘amen’ instead of saying, ‘I can’t do that, I hate my enemies,’ as the president did.”
Cox responded to Shapiro by noting that, in private, Trump had praised him for expressing the need for Americans to come together.
“I’m not trying to play down his divisive rhetoric at all,” Cox said. “I’m not going to do that. But I’m going to say this: If we think that a president of the United States or a governor is going to change where we are right now, we’re fooling ourselves. I truly believe that the people of our country are the ones who are going to have to change this.”
Both governors talked about the role they believe social media algorithms play in the country’s ever-growing political divides.
“If you want to be angry at someone, be angry at the social media companies,” Cox said, adding, “These are the wealthiest and most powerful companies in the history of the world, and they’re profiting off of destroying our kids and destroying our country, and they know it, and it’s very intentional.”
“Even though they have trillion-dollar market caps, it’s still not enough,” he continued.
The governors were divided, however, over whether they believe states should pass bans on social media accounts for kids under 16, which is set to take effect in Australia on Wednesday. Cox said he was “100%” supportive of such a ban, while Shapiro said, “I don’t know that I’d support that.”
“The approach that we’ve tried to take in Pennsylvania, led by our first lady, has been ensuring that digital literacy is taught in our classrooms, that our teachers are empowered to understand how to do it and that our students are in a position to receive that information and understand these powerful phones and computers that they have,” Shapiro said. “They can be used for good, but they also have to be used in a way that folks understand fact from fiction, that they understand how addictive these platforms are and how they can learn how to use them in moderation.
“We are working with our school districts to figure out the best policy on phone usage and what can be used,” he added. “I think it is important that young people learn about these tools, they are empowered to use them responsibly, while at the same time, those of us in positions of authority, hold these companies accountable.”
Cox said he understood Shapiro’s position but countered that “the damage is just too great on our kids right now.”
“These are the opioid companies of the of the early 2000s,” Cox said. “There is no difference. … It’s addictive, and it’s addictive by design. All we tried to do was to make them remove the most addictive features on their products for kids, that’s it. And they wouldn’t even do that. So it just, they’re bad-faith actors, and they no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt.”
At the conclusion of the discussion, Guthrie asked the governors whether either is running for president in 2028. Shapiro is widely seen as a 2028 Democratic presidential contender.
“One of us is not,” Cox said.
Shapiro did not answer.
